The Morality of Idolatry

[randompasserby]

I think I'm in the minority whenever the subject of idol dating is brought up, mainly because I don't really care either way
*disclaimer : when I talk about idols, I meant H!P. Don't really keep up with the rest of them to make a valid opinion

Their average age is around what...junior high to high school age? I don't know about you guys but where I live dating is usually pretty much meaningless and never high on the priority list to most kids around that age, maybe I'm just projecting here but I honestly believe that from personal experience and what I can see of other kids around me at the time. Even more so for those driven kids that have already decided on a career track, be it at sports, academia or entertainment as is the case for idols.
While ultimately I do agree that an agency booting an idol that was caught in a dating "scandal" is idiotic, I never saw no-dating rule itself as an inhuman agency enforcing blatant violation of human rights... simply because that would be ignoring the very valid possibility that the girls could just as easily choose it for themselves (feeling no great loss abstaining from dating for a few years) and there's always the door to the graduation ceremony whenever they feel like moving on.

Heck, I can only remember less than 10 people in my high school senior year that were definitely dating someone and my social circles back then definitely weren't as pitifully empty as it is now

[Zunu]

I think I'm in the minority whenever the subject of idol dating is brought up, mainly because I don't really care either way
*disclaimer : when I talk about idols, I meant H!P. Don't really keep up with the rest of them to make a valid opinion

Their average age is around what...junior high to high school age? I don't know about you guys but where I live dating is usually pretty much meaningless and never high on the priority list to most kids around that age, maybe I'm just projecting here but I honestly believe that from personal experience and what I can see of other kids around me at the time. Even more so for those driven kids that have already decided on a career track, be it at sports, academia or entertainment as is the case for idols.
While ultimately I do agree that an agency booting an idol that was caught in a dating "scandal" is idiotic, I never saw no-dating rule itself as an inhuman agency enforcing blatant violation of human rights... simply because that would be ignoring the very valid possibility that the girls could just as easily choose it for themselves (feeling no great loss abstaining from dating for a few years) and there's always the door to the graduation ceremony whenever they feel like moving on.

Heck, I can only remember less than 10 people in my high school senior year that were definitely dating someone and my social circles back then definitely weren't as pitifully empty as it is now

That's really an interesting spin, rpb. Dating, or at least the possibility of dating, is such an important part of life in the US that it's in some cases inconceivable to us that it could just be low-ish on someone's priorities. Actually, when I was a kid, my family was really religious and I was forbidden to date as well. That didn't entirely prevent me from misadventures, plus I moved away from home as soon as I was able, but it still informed my worldview to some extent. I never really gave it much thought as such, but it could be why it doesn't bother me much either that the girls aren't "allowed" to date. I'm putting "allowed" in quotes because I agree there's a clear distinction between being actually forbidden, and being given a choice of not dating and picking a new job.

I honestly don't feel any kind of guilt complex over being a jpop fan, or a fan of H!P. If I did, I'd probably stop, or at least curtail my listening a great deal. That's one of the reasons I hardly listen to any "gangsta" rap; I can't condone the rampant violence, misogyny, and senseless, abusive lifestyle it promotes, which IMO is far more insidious than the fantasies that idol groups purvey. When I listen to H!P or AKB, I don't really think for a second that those girls are preserving their virginity for my sake. And not that I'm unique in any way, I think the vast majority of jpop fans understand that there is an "I-it" separation ("spacelike interval" ?? ) between themselves and their idols. They don't fool themselves into an imaginary "I-thou" mutual-cause-and-effect relationship ("timelike interval" ??) with these distant figures. A lot of rap fans, on the other hand, seem to take the fantasy lifestyle of a rap artist to heart. They strive to emulate the swagga, the reliance on violence and mistreatment of women, on crime and lack of civility, in their own daily lives. To me, idol music doesn't even come close to that level of disrespect for its audience and its own performers.

Also gaiz, (Saho) Akari in S/mileage? ARE YOU DAFT? She's way too...sly...for S/mileage. They're supposed to be totally innocent girls who just by accident dress like OOPS, WHY IS MY SKIRT SO SHORT? WAKANNAI!!!

[TotallyUncool]

Oh, that's not what I-it vs. I-thou is all about, and you really know that, don't you?

It's never good to view anybody as an it (unless they're a particularly shaggy member of the Addams family). Some fans do view their favorites and objects, rather than people with their own lives and feelings, and that's just not healthy (nobody here would do that, of course, but you know how those other fans are, over at those other forums ).

More than anything, though, all of to one degree or another us buy the nice, cleaned-up, prettied-up image that the idol-management companies want us to see, if only because that's usually what we wind up seeing, so we don't know what's under the surface. We fill in that blank with what we're inclined to see, and I'll admit that I'm inclined to see a lot of not-particularly-good motives and practices on the part of management.

And my first reaction to the "no-boyfriends" BS was that it was just plain depressing. And pointless. Kind of like knowing that your favorite idol had to head a bowl of fresh, hot, steamding raw vomit every morning for breakfast.

And don't tell me about the new bowl-of-vomit diet that's sweeping the entertainment industry. I don't want to know about it.

[Zunu]

Lol, it just whimsically occurred to me that spacelike and timelike paths have a sort of loose correspondence to thoseter concepts you mentioned wrt the degree of separation and involvement. In an ersatz Dancing Wu Li kinda way

About management's seedy underbelly, true, but one could say as much about almost any employer anywhere. It does seem to me that UF is better than most idol agencies in terms of their outward treatment of the girls, and barring a tell-all, that's all we have to go by. That, and the fact that even many girls who were "disciplined" by the agency have stuck with it well into adulthood. And even those who haven't don't seem to have much bad to say. Gocchin's logged enough time in two agencies that she could fairly compare both, yet hasn't spoken unfavorably about H!P.

[TotallyUncool]

But that may just be common sense and professional discretion -- you don't bad-mouth your former management in public, because your current management may take that as an indication of how you'll eventually talk about them. I find myself doing that at work -- being diplomatic about former employers, simply to give my current employers the message that I have the discretion to discreetly separate my life and opinions into discrete public and private areas, and to be discreet about what I say in public.


Edited for discreetly discrete units of discretion.

Last edited by TotallyUncool on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

[Parhelion69]

^ Unless you're Koharu , she totally disrespected her former employer and that offended Sayu (and it seems Sanma as well, the way she said things is frowned upon in Japan)

[questorminator]

I never really looked into the no-BF rule as anything more than a clause in their contracts that they had to adhere. I have no illusions about their "purity" or what, but it's being required of them and they agreed to abide by it by signing that dotted line. Of course that being a significant element in the idol culture is a given and is a major factor for the rule. They have an "image" that the company is trying to protect and which they have uphold. It may sound BS to us, but if an idol fails to sell because she can't juggle school, career and a relationship, it's the company who'll ultimately have to suffer for it.

[esm]

I think I'm in the minority whenever the subject of idol dating is brought up, mainly because I don't really care either way
*disclaimer : when I talk about idols, I meant H!P. Don't really keep up with the rest of them to make a valid opinion

Their average age is around what...junior high to high school age? I don't know about you guys but where I live dating is usually pretty much meaningless and never high on the priority list to most kids around that age, maybe I'm just projecting here but I honestly believe that from personal experience and what I can see of other kids around me at the time. Even more so for those driven kids that have already decided on a career track, be it at sports, academia or entertainment as is the case for idols.
While ultimately I do agree that an agency booting an idol that was caught in a dating "scandal" is idiotic, I never saw no-dating rule itself as an inhuman agency enforcing blatant violation of human rights... simply because that would be ignoring the very valid possibility that the girls could just as easily choose it for themselves (feeling no great loss abstaining from dating for a few years) and there's always the door to the graduation ceremony whenever they feel like moving on.

Heck, I can only remember less than 10 people in my high school senior year that were definitely dating someone and my social circles back then definitely weren't as pitifully empty as it is now

That's kind of how I see it, and I also grew up going to school in Asia (Thailand, and it was a private school where everybody went to college [or were expected to] after graduation). People weren't really dating. They talk about having a crush on this person and that person (and making rumors about who likes whom) since elementary school, but there weren't many people actually dating.

To me, it's just a job requirement that they should know about before they signed up for it, and it's not impossible to be discrete about it if they want to have a boyfriend.

Also, it's a general Asian parent/adult-figure mentality that dating = distraction from school and thus your future, so it's likely seen as distraction from school + work as well (and young people obviously are expected to show more respect towards adults in Asia than in Western countries).

[resop2]

I'm not really bothered by the no dating rule. In Japan's Women Professional Wrestling industry when they recruited teenage girls for training they told them that they couldn't date until they were much older as well.

Also, idols are supposed to be "The girlfriends of Japan". How could they be this if they have boyfriends?

And as for growing up dateless being a human rights issue, it's a job. One is expected to make sacrifices in even menial jobs and this is a "prestige" job. And, it's not like tens of thousands of girls audition for a spot in an idol group and are then surprised to find out about the no dating rule.

[Zunu]

FYI it's "discreet," guys.

Discreet means quiet, surreptitious, unobtrusive, secret, etc.

Discrete means differentiable, individualized, whole pieces, something like that.