Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:16 pm
randompasserby wrote:Wasn't planning on participating much on this thread but ah well, might as well throw a few cents here and thereBakajo Nono wrote:They're far too young to understand what exactly they're swearing off when they sign contracts at such a young age, and then by the time they have advanced through puberty and all the hormones have stopped wreaking havoc, they've been disciplined by the industry through years of training, education, and every other way they are so completely immersed into the industry to view sex in a slut-shaming light. I'm not saying they do, in the end, view it that way, but it inevitably shapes the psyche over such extended periods of time--and especially with such deep immersion and intensity. That's how schools work to promote nationalism, hierarchy, etc.
Not to mention, again, the paradox they face when they sing songs about romantic life, act in sexualized ways, and yet are restricted from actually engaging in any of it in any way.
-This contract that they supposedly sign? Fan conjecture. We know nothing about the actual details of any contracts signed between the agency and the idol + their guardians. If anything any kind of punishment for "improper" behavior is more likely decided after the fact and with many considerations to the circumstances, as we can recently see from the varying punishments in the **48 family for practically identical offenses.
-How does abstaining from dating in their tweens suddenly becomes viewing sex in a slut shaming light? A lot of the people around me don't even date until after they finished high school, not because they were forbidden to but because they don't really consider dating as an obligatory life experience/rite of passage in high school as much as others think they are and as far as I know they don't have negative views on sex or relationships in general just because they never dated in their tweens. Personally I think people can have discipline enough to stay away from distractions when you're pursuing other things you consider a higher priority without warping their world view so much. Putting time restrictions in their schedules aside, athletes also stay away from binge eating fast foods, scholarship hounds doesn't have time for silly video games/cartoons, musicians/artists/performers and I'm sure many others types of people besides idols makes all kinds of little sacrifices along the way.
-I don't think personally experiencing the things they sing about was ever a requirement for any artists/musicians, especially those that don't even write their own music. It certainly adds some value but I can't see how it's a paradox.
Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:50 pm
Bakajo Nono wrote:- Okay, fan conjecture, but then why was there a scandal when Mari was dating Shun? When they asked 9th gen if they had secret boyfriends or whatever they said they didn't want to lose their job/love Morning Musume too much to risk it or whatever. If it's not in their contract, how could the industry enforce banning love or whatever?
Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:37 pm
Bakajo Nono wrote:Zunu wrote:Kita St Cyr wrote:It's interesting to see the defensiveness of the inherently misogynist nature of 'idolatry' by throwing out the "it's a job" argument or the average age of H!P.
First of all, that's weaksauce. If you have an argument to make (and you do make a good one, although I don't entirely concur), you should rely on the strength of that argument. Casting aspersions upon the supposed motivations behind opposing positions is just a bullying tactic. "You disagree with me, therefore you must be misogynist."
She wasn't calling anyone misogynistic; she said the industry was misogynistic and that justifying the industry's methods by calling it a job was defending a misogynistic industry.
This is something that I find a bit bizarre about (as it is referred to in the scholarly literature) The "BTK (Bakajo-Totally-Kita) position". It plays havoc with concept of capacity. On the one hand, you are saying that the girls are capable of making an informed decision to be sexually active. On the other hand, you are saying that the girls are incapable of making an informed decision to not be sexually active.
They're far too young to understand what exactly they're swearing off when they sign contracts at such a young age, and then by the time they have advanced through puberty and all the hormones have stopped wreaking havoc, they've been disciplined by the industry through years of training, education, and every other way they are so completely immersed into the industry to view sex in a slut-shaming light. I'm not saying they do, in the end, view it that way, but it inevitably shapes the psyche over such extended periods of time--and especially with such deep immersion and intensity. That's how schools work to promote nationalism, hierarchy, etc.
Well, we know that they sign an employment contract. Because that's what happens when you work for a professional organization. We also know that they are forbidden to have boyfriends. This has been publicly admitted many times. So the main points, that there is a contract, and that they are forbidden to date, are not conjecture.rpb wrote:-This contract that they supposedly sign? Fan conjecture.
-How does abstaining from dating in their tweens suddenly becomes viewing sex in a slut shaming light? A lot of the people around me don't even date until after they finished high school, not because they were forbidden to but because they don't really consider dating as an obligatory life experience/rite of passage in high school as much as others think they are and as far as I know they don't have negative views on sex or relationships in general just because they never dated in their tweens. Personally I think people can have discipline enough to stay away from distractions when you're pursuing other things you consider a higher priority without warping their world view so much. Putting time restrictions in their schedules aside, athletes also stay away from binge eating fast foods, scholarship hounds doesn't have time for silly video games/cartoons, musicians/artists/performers and I'm sure many others types of people besides idols makes all kinds of little sacrifices along the way.
resop2 wrote:However, I am not sure that Fujimoto was making some heroic stand as opposed to she got caught and she got kicked out.
If Fujimoto Miki was not 'above the law' then you will not be either.
Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:25 am
Zunu wrote: Well, we know that they sign an employment contract. Because that's what happens when you work for a professional organization. We also know that they are forbidden to have boyfriends. This has been publicly admitted many times. So the main points, that there is a contract, and that they are forbidden to date, are not conjecture.
Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:39 am
Zunu wrote:Which is my point, that UF has decided, post Fujimoto, that it's better to sweep these incidents under the rug if possible than to shame the girls and ultimately bring shame upon the organization.
The reaction to scandals, when they do become public (the many tabloids make sure that they do), is equally predictable. Obviously Japanese love reading juicy stories as much as anybody. But the punishments meted out to offending talentos are curious. One female talento, after being questioned — not even arrested — about smoking pot with friends in a hotel-room, found all her contracts cancelled, including a lucrative tampon commercial she starred in. This would have been quite conceivable in Hollywood in the 1940s: Robert Mitchum, too, was arrested for smoking pot. But the following scene has an unmistakably Japanese flavour: the talento was made to go through a humiliating public apology on television, something like those self-criticism sessions in China during the Cultural Revolution, telling us how truly sorry she was, and how frightful the effects of pot smoking are. Only after this tearful demonstration of sincerity and good intentions did the wrath of the public-spirited media abate and she was let back into the tampon advertisements and the sing-along shows.
Sagara Naomi, another female singer, was not so lucky. One ill-fated day her lesbian lover told all in a television talk show. Why she did it nobody knows, but as a result Sagara was barred from appearing on television as long as the incident remained in the admittedly fickle public memory. Sagara's problem was not, I think, due to any innate wickedness of lesbian love. Homosexuality as such was never a sin in Japan. The problem was that she did not keep her friend under control. She let down the façade of propriety, she caused embarrassment, she rocked the social boat, and of course, she happened to be single. Nobody seems to care much about what people do in private, as long as they conform in public. After all, it is perfectly acceptable for a Japanese prime minister to keep several mistresses, as long as he is not a bachelor, in which case he would never have become prime minister in the first place.
Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:10 pm
Zunu wrote:resop2 wrote: If Fujimoto Miki was not 'above the law' then you will not be either.
Except for the fact that Fujimoto got exactly what she wanted. She got to stay with the guy she was messing with, stay with the girl she was messing with, and keep getting checks from Up Front. And the fact that the scandals have ceased doesn't mean that the dating has ceased. I can think of at least one case (Miyabi's) where there were inconclusive photos released but UF chose to ignore them rather than escalating the situation. Which is my point, that UF has decided, post Fujimoto, that it's better to sweep these incidents under the rug if possible than to shame the girls and ultimately bring shame upon the organization. Might just be a coincidence that right after they lost the battle to rein in their star performers (let's throw Yaguchi in there too) that suddenly every girl in H!P found a way to suppress their desires, but I'm saying that it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. Are you the only person allowed to engage in baseless speculation around here?
Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:40 pm
randompasserby wrote:Zunu wrote: Well, we know that they sign an employment contract. Because that's what happens when you work for a professional organization. We also know that they are forbidden to have boyfriends. This has been publicly admitted many times. So the main points, that there is a contract, and that they are forbidden to date, are not conjecture.
Ah sorry, maybe I didn't phrase that correctly.
Of course they signed an employement contract but in that paragraph you took the quote from I was referring to the particular clause in said contract that explicitly forbids them from engaging in any relationships while they're in the agency's employment as idols. Everyone seems convinced it's there while that might not be the case.
The main points you mentioned still stands definitely, but I was just making a point that it's not a clear cut cause-effect relationship i.e they can't date because it's in their contract.
Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:17 am
(d)Cause. Employee is terminated for Cause. For purposes of
this Agreement, "Cause" is defined as (i) the willful and continued
failure by Employee to perform substantially his duties with the
Company (other than any such failure resulting from his incapacity
due to physical or mental illness), or (ii) the willful engaging by
Employee in misconduct which is materially and demonstrably
injurious to the Company. For purposes of this Agreement, no act,
or failure to act, on the part of Employee shall be considered
"willful" unless such act was committed, or such failure to act
occurred, in bad faith and without reasonable belief that Employee's
act or failure to act was in the best interests of the Company.
(e)Without Cause. The employment of Employee by the Company
under this Agreement may be terminated without Cause with severance
at any time by the Company's Chief Executive Officer with the
approval of the Company's Board of Directors in its sole discretion.
Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:55 am
Zunu wrote:Except for the fact that Fujimoto got exactly what she wanted. She got to stay with the guy she was messing with, stay with the girl she was messing with, and keep getting checks from Up Front. And the fact that the scandals have ceased doesn't mean that the dating has ceased. I can think of at least one case (Miyabi's) where there were inconclusive photos released but UF chose to ignore them rather than escalating the situation. Which is my point, that UF has decided, post Fujimoto, that it's better to sweep these incidents under the rug if possible than to shame the girls and ultimately bring shame upon the organization. Might just be a coincidence that right after they lost the battle to rein in their star performers (let's throw Yaguchi in there too) that suddenly every girl in H!P found a way to suppress their desires, but I'm saying that it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. Are you the only person allowed to engage in baseless speculation around here?
Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:12 am