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OK, I'M MOVING THESE POSTS YET AGAIN.

Basically, my concern is that these controversial topics not keep choking off other, more "everyday" conversations, from taking place. Some of us are endlessly fascinated by this stuff, but there are plenty of people who are bored to tears by it, and we don't need to keep dragging them into our discussion. And yes, I realize I am one of the primary villains in this affair.

The focus of this thread will be to keep these hyper-rants, which have no ultimate resolution, in a self-contained area. For now I'm making it a sticky so it doesn't keep bumping itself around. When things die down, I'll consider reverting it to normal.

EDIT: Things have died down so...

Anyway, we started off talking about Minegishi and her boyfriend scandal...

Oh brother, she's not a slave. It's a voluntary gig, she knows the conditions, and in this case, she's a grown adult. Unlike slaves, she can quit and move on with her life if she wants, so that hyperbole is ridiculous. Besides, to the extent any of that's true, it applies 100% equally to every group in H!P.

The image of chaste innocence and girlfriend-like devotion to the fans is what makes an idol an idol. That image, more than their looks or talent, is the product they're selling, which is why so many otherwise plain girls find success as idols. (For goodness sake, remember what "idol" literally means: an object of worship or adoration.) So if a girl cannot maintain that image, then she isn't an idol. She might become a singer or actress or model or talent or whatever, but she is not an idol.

In this case, there may be overreaction from many sides, but the basic principle is what it is.

I just don't like pimps, and I really, really don't like pimps who cater to the wormy, creepy fantasies and insecurities of infantile johns who are too pathetic to go out and pick up some tail on their own. And as far as I'm concerned, that's what the no-boyfrend "rules" in AKB and H!P are all about. That was my reaction the first time I heard about it in H!P, and that's still the way I feel.

And I'll say this: It is morally bankrupt to speak of no-boyfriend "rules" made by pimps to cater to pathetic johns as if they were on the same moral level (or even the same moral universe) as the rules made by parents for their children's safety, or even the rules made by most non-pimp employers to maintain a functioning business.

The only thing that's kept me from just walking away from all idol music in disgust is my suspicion (which may be as unrealistic in its own way as any wota fantasy ) that most idols actually do find ways to sneak out the back door and have a little fun, and that by and large the idol industry is willing to look the other way as long as nobody gets "caught".

I'm usually diplomatic to the point of being mealy-mouthed about such things, but this is something that has made my skin crawl every time its come up for the past eight or ten years or whatever, and sometimes I just have to say what I really think.

I'm curious, why is it so important to you that they are getting something on the side? What's so wrong about actually being chaste and innocent and just plain nice, especially when a girl is still a minor, as the vast majority of idols are? Some might call it "unrealistic," but in my opinion, that's just another word for "unprincipled." We're supposed to be better than our base natures. If I was interested in the adventures of drunken whores, I have plenty to choose from in American pop culture.

Furthermore, it's interesting that you think the idol-wota relationship is directly equivalent to the prostitute-john relationship. (Never mind that it makes prostitution a bad thing, which contradicts your argument that it's okay for them to be promiscuous and also doesn't seem very liberated in this era of "it's my body and I can do what I want.") Why is it all about sex? And if it is all about sex, then how can there be so many child, female, and gay fans? Why are you a fan? Could the image of chaste innocence be appealing for reasons other than sex? Could it simply be that it's entertaining to watch cute girls do cute things? If yes, then why is it okay for you but not for other fans who are the same age, gender, and orientation as you?

Drunken Whore =/= Person in a consenting relationship.

A a push I might get behind a "no dating while your under 18" rule but the reason I think apart from the U-18 gravure that the no dating rule is the worst part of the idol fandom that I only put up with because the other parts are so great.

Being in a relationship is a human right imo and seeing my idol find love is something i'd readily support. Sure be having dating idols be "a thing" we might risk one or two idol becoming a Taylor Swift but that's well worth it if it stop all these scandals. Plus the Johnny fandom has survived their boys dating.

EDIT: who changed the topic title?

DSQueenie wrote:Being in a relationship is a human right

It's a human right, but it's not an idol right. The entire point of the female idol image (geez, why do I have to repeat myself?) is almost superhuman innocence. As in, the absence of all the grown-up crap we're trying to escape from. That is the product. That's what fans find appealing, and that's what sells. CDs, concert tickets, and merchandise are merely the tokens by which that product is sold. And it's literally part of the contract that a female idol signs, so if she wants to be in a relationship, then she can stop being idol. Like Zunu said, she's not a slave.

DSQueenie wrote:Plus the Johnny fandom has survived their boys dating.

Female fans like to imagine male idols being sexually active, because males are sexual aggressors. Different product, different rules.

Seriously, do we need to have a remedial lesson on the difference between men and women? Men are big and strong (on average), women are small and weak (on average), and the penis penetrates the vagina.

Nuns and priests aren't allowed to be sexually active either. And yes, you can certainly argue that this stance has caused problems for the Church. But it would be weird to call the Pope a "pimp" just because his organization enforces a vow of chastity. And of course nuns and priests are free to resign from their posts if they feel they can't uphold their vows. That's the whole thing. Everybody knows from jump what the rules are. It's not a shock. If you don't like them you can quit. If you get caught and are forced to resign, big deal, life goes on. Some of the girls even remain in show business, just not in their previous idol position.

In any case I think a "slap in the wrist" and maybe a single without her would have been enough, if unnecessary. As the biggest idol company out there I feel like it'd be healthy for AKB (and as a result idols in general) to start resting importance to this "rule" - they honestly have the popularity to pull it off. And then other idol groups could follow suit. The demotion was pretty harsh and dumb, but I think it's the "apology" video what feels the most wrong to me.

I imagine that if she hadn't gone ape-shit and shaved her head, that the demotion would have likely never taken place at all.

If she didn't shave her head this woulda already have been forgotten.